What is the difference between “well-being” and “well-being”?

Anna: I’m delighted you accepted our invitation to take part in our podcast, and before we dive into the hard questions, I would first like to ask you to introduce yourself, please.

Pascale: I’m delighted you invited me, especially to talk about the body, because I’m asked a lot about cosmetics, but my great passion for 25 years has been well-being and the question of the body. So, I’ve been working in the cosmetics sector for 30 years, but also in well-being—so food, spas, sports, everything that contributes to our better-being, really. I have several roles. I have a role helping brands foresee what consumers will want tomorrow. And I was already very focused on organic, ecological, and natural products in the late 90s. I also help brands with branding, brand positioning, aligning values, and consistency—and a lot of young brands over the last four years, which I have great pleasure in supporting.

A: Alright, so you actually have a double or triple, maybe even quadruple hat?

P: Yes, because I also promote them; I really like to highlight these brands in a completely gracious and disinterested way, especially on Instagram, interviewing them live. And then carrying the voice of brands, including large groups as well, regarding their virtuous actions on LinkedIn, where I was delighted to be elected best influencer of 2020.

A: Congratulations! It’s in light of all this experience that I’m going to ask you a few questions. The first concerns ecology in general. My question is: what is your relationship with ecology, and above all, how has it evolved in recent years?

P: Well, my relationship with ecology started 25 years ago, and it happened first and foremost through my relationship with my body, through my relationship with myself, and through nutrition. In fact, I felt very drawn to organic products and I didn’t know why at all. You have to let yourself be carried and follow what you feel. And so, I had this very, very strong call for the natural, which I went to experiment with very quickly, through nutrition. That’s why, by the way, I trained in a nutrition/naturopathy curriculum in the early 2000s, but also later in phyto, essential oils… I took tons of classes and training when I became a consultant and created Trend Sourcing in 2000. I had that time too, and eventually, I discovered that it was the living world I wanted to preserve and that interested me because, for example, I am very adamant about the fact that lobbies or companies put an enormous amount of pollutants and ingredients harmful to health into our food, in particular. And that makes me lose my temper. Actually, lose my temper—I just saw a report on Thema this week about entire populations decimated by diabetes, obviously the poorest populations. There were tons of examples in the United States, but there you go—what really matters to me is preserving health and all the means to get there. So, this ecology, this link to the living, I’ve seen it evolve in recent years, a lot in relation to the climate and the climate issue, and to the fact that we are living and will live through big, big climate changes, especially when you read the reports from IPCC experts who are issuing serious warnings starting from 2028. So, that’s tomorrow. And many philosophers and sociologists I enjoy following and reading have testified a lot to the fact that we are all connected. It’s tied to an absolute interdependence between all kingdoms: plants, animals, insects, everything that exists and lives on the planet, and of course, us humans. And I have the feeling that this is still a vision that isn’t shared by everyone, though there is a major rise in consciousness that I’ve also been observing for four years, and all the better, and a lot among young generations who are putting in the extra effort because they are well aware that it’s the last line of defense to take action. And they are pulling the older ones along.

A: Why four years?

P: Did I say four or five years? Because that’s when I really observed that there was a lifting of taboos, and so the conversation was much more fluid, including on the question of women, violence, but also the body, periods, menopause. So, we’ll come to that. And then what had attracted me in the late 90s, when I was going to Japan, the United States, and a quantity of countries a lot. And I was passionate about what we called "mystical cosmetics" at the time. But it was impossible to bring that back to France, or to do yoga like I was doing. We were perceived as "out there." I also trained in astrology, so everything that was astro, stones, talking about chakras, energies—honestly, people looked at you as if you were in a cult. I practically had to hide. Anyway, I couldn’t talk to everyone, unlike now, about everything I was doing, actually. So that’s why I say that for the past five years, speech has been much freer. Social networks have obviously favored all these exchanges, and Instagram immensely. And so, there is a rise in testimonies, sharing, staging, photos. And that is extraordinary. So there you go, the big change in ecology is also about putting the connection back between all living things and this interdependence which means that if, indeed, as we are currently experiencing a strong regression of insects and birds, it is truly the peril of human life that is here. Rather than telling us all the time to “preserve the planet,” it’s especially about preserving humans, in fact, because the planet will always be there. It has been here for billions of years, and in principle, even if there are catastrophes that can happen, it will resist, whereas humans risk having much more complicated times. So, it’s first and foremost about respecting oneself.

A: And if I narrow the scope, what does ecology evoke for you, this time, regarding the body?

P: It’s really about self-care for one's person, so respecting oneself, listening to oneself—it’s a lot about listening to oneself.

I can hear and understand—I have testimonies because I support people at this level individually—that it isn't innate to be able to and know how to listen to yourself, to listen to your body. Your needs. And then honoring them, actually. But that means listening to see if we have tensions, if we have signs that can also be linked to cycles. If we are annoyed, in fact, all sorts of possible feelings, because the body will never betray us. The body is super loyal, and being able to lean on your body is really extraordinary because we have, on another plane, we chose our incarnation. We chose to be one with our body in this life, and so we have everything to gain by making it the best ally possible since, once again, it will be there for this whole life and it will not betray us. Afterwards, there is the question, obviously, of illnesses, of many things that can happen. We will talk about that on another occasion. But there you go, body ecology is effectively about doing as much good for yourself as possible, being attentive to the techniques or means that will suit us.

A: And you were saying that it is already complicated to listen to oneself, based on the experience you have with the people who consult you. Why is it complicated to listen to oneself? What are the difficulties?

P: The difficulties? I can receive people who are enormously in their heads, who are in their intellect and who don't have this habit or perception of things at all. For them, it requires a real effort to pause and consider their bodies for x reasons. Because they weren't taught—it’s true that in our history, with Descartes, the Catholic religion, the body is cut off from the spirit. Yet, that was not at all the case for the Greeks, for example. When you read Plato, all of Greek philosophy, everything is linked. And in all medicines, including Hippocratic. And then, further away, in China, Ayurveda, the body, obviously, and the spirit are totally linked. So, we didn't have that habit. It isn't relayed at school, nor by parents, unless you were lucky enough to have parents who are already very connected, in these habits, or in jobs that work with the body. So, indeed, we can be completely in the mental, in the doing, in the action, because society has also pressured us a lot. And then, tremendously for 20 years, to consider humans as individuals who must be profitable. It’s terrible, but it is true that it’s the profitability of the human in the company, in work. To push oneself, to have to push oneself to work…

A: Is it learned? How do we learn to listen to ourselves? It’s very hard to learn to listen to yourself.

P: Well, it’s a path, it’s a journey, but it will be truly individual. So, indicating tips, general things, won't necessarily suit the person listening to us right now, since it really depends on their journey and their current level of listening. But I would say it can happen simply by pausing for three minutes. There you go, it’s not very long. It’s a little time accessible in a place that you like, if possible. There you go, a little corner that’s a bit sanctified in your bedroom, for example. I see more and more people making little altars, with photos they like, with stones and trinkets. Anyway, something. We want to collect ourselves, or it can even be outside, in front of a landscape, a place where you know you won't be disturbed. And there you go, asking yourself, "What am I feeling? What is my body telling me?" "Oh, I feel a little something in my shoulder as I run my hand over it; I hadn't felt that. I have a little discomfort there. Wow, that’s strange. Oh, and yes, at the level of the hip and pelvis, it’s true that I could perhaps straighten my position a bit." Or telling yourself, "But here, I’m really hot in the head." What can we do to pacify? To remove that? There are movements. Personally, I like some Daoyin or Qi Gong movements, but if only just, for example, running your hands over your forehead while alternating right and left. There you go, it’s a first benefit of being able, obviously, to breathe, to exhale, and to be attentive to your breathing. Lower your shoulders. We raise our shoulders, we lower them, we make little movements like that, and immediately, we feel better. Take deep breaths. Then let go. I let go of everything that bothers me. And then, it can be in the morning when waking up; we don't get up right away. We remain lying down. We are attentive to our dreams sometimes. And then, the more we are attentive, the more the dreams will come to consciousness. I’ve written them down for 15 years, and in fact, it’s fabulous because there are dreams that indicate to me what is going to happen. And then, it’s the subconscious that comes to the conscious. They warn us that we are entering a phase where it’s the moment to work around this or that theme or to listen. I say that because I love therapy and psychology, so I am very attentive, obviously, to my dreams; we only dream of ourselves, even when we dream, obviously, of others, of one's boyfriend, one's girlfriend, one's parents, no matter who. We only dream of our dream, of a part of ourselves that comes to consciousness. And then, sometimes, we don't remember our dreams. But when we get into the habit, me, my dreams, my very important dreams wake me up. They will wake me up at 4 or 5 a.m. I note it down immediately and I fall back asleep. So there you go, we listen to ourselves, we move the body a little, we do little movements, we take the time.

A: You describe a lifestyle, routines… And the question of cycles—how do we go about grasping our own cycles?

P: For me, it was a big story. There, too, it’s very personal and it’s fabulous that there is so much talk being freed. But it’s true that cycles were complex for me. There, listening is fundamental. It shakes us up. There is the skin that speaks. There is the body with the breasts. We will be warned of our periods, we will change moods. All that will accompany us, in fact. Finally, for me, it accompanied me from my 14th to my 51st year, and I had plenty of different relationships with these cycles that bored me a lot, enormously. I had plenty of pains that I tried to temper with plants, with essential oils, with massages—or sometimes I even turned to allopathy when I couldn't take it anymore. It happened that I took meds to reduce cramps and I also read a lot. There are books that helped me. Gynecology/naturopathy manuals like *Mama Mélisse* by Rina Nissim. I read *Le sang des femmes*. Anyway, I wanted to know a lot. I studied a lot, as I said, including in books. And then it was after giving birth that everything became untangled. In fact, I didn't have pain at all anymore. Once my delivery was over. But I still waited until I was 40.

A: Yes, it’s the realization and the bringing into consciousness of one's own cycles. For me, it was around 30, and in fact, for you, it’s the opposite that you did; you first sought to be informed and in fact, the day you gave birth, it untangled.

P: Yes, it untangled. In fact, there was also a whole psychological link, so I had also worked in therapy, because there are sometimes invisible links. There are transgenerational links. So I also had a sort of psychic impossibility to have a child. And my daughter arrived by surprise, completely by surprise. And I think I could never have had her otherwise in the story of my life. I thought I wouldn't have a child, and fortunately she arrived, and it was extraordinary for me, a fabulous opening. But we can have a life, obviously, without a child, and we will create in a completely different way.

A: So it’s your daughter who reconciled you with the cycles?

P: Oh, but yes, it’s very powerful, whereas in my transgenerational feminine, it wasn’t possible. And on top of that, I had injunctions to have a child. So, I had to spend years asking myself, “Is this my mother’s desire to have a child, or is it my own desire?” I didn’t know. And then cycles, I wasn’t educated. I had to find out. My mother had said almost nothing.

It was just the event of the day I got my period, with slightly absurd expressions like “the English have landed”—they told that to my father… Yippee! But in fact, I got all my education from magazines. Back then, it was OK Magazine. I was eager for personal accounts. And then, obviously, I talked about it with my friends, my cousins, and everyone. I questioned myself because I saw that my cycles weren’t like the average; I had 40–45-day cycles. When I discovered naturopathy 25 years ago, I effectively wanted to find a gynecologist who practiced naturopathy so that there would be real consistency. It’s wonderful; it helps enormously. And also, because I wanted natural means of contraception. Personally, I didn’t want hormones; I had read a lot about how hormones were linked to events and hormone-dependent cancers later on. So, well, without causing alarm, once again, every story is different. But there you have it. The question of cycles has been very, very important in my life, and it’s my daughter who made me accept all that. I never had any more pain. It was extraordinary. I was well, and then I had an extraordinary pregnancy. There is also a book I can recommend on the subject, Accouchement, naissance, un chemin initiatique by Martine Texier. And I really talked to my daughter so she would position herself. I told her about the whole journey she would have to make through my body to be born. And so, I really told her how to turn to avoid a breech birth, etc. I wanted a natural birth, and my wish was granted. I arrived in a fire truck. And I didn’t even lose my waters. She arrived wearing her caul. I arrived at 10 cm dilated, and I was in very, very much pain. I had forgotten all my precepts; I wanted an epidural… She came out in 20 minutes; it was done. But I had talked to her a lot, a lot before. I had indeed done many things for my body—perineal massage, haptonomy, a quantity of things to ensure this birth went as well as possible. And to finish with the question: at menopause, I was unhappy not to be able to say goodbye to my periods, even though they had bothered me so much. But in fact, they just left like that. Actually, since I listen to my body a lot, I knew it was possibly the last time, but it was very subtle because it was just that all of a sudden, well, it had lasted more than just a single day and the flow was lighter. But that’s all. And it was over. I said to myself, “Darn, I wasn't able to have a real party.” And besides, I think we should celebrate it, as was the case before. We really used to celebrate the arrival of periods for young girls and young women with all sorts of rituals, little notes where everyone testifies to this unique day in life. And we should similarly celebrate their departure, because now, another period is opening up, and for me, it is a period that is truly a gateway, which is extraordinary. More spirituality, more awareness toward other zones, other paths, and creativity. So, in fact, since creativity is no longer at the service of the interior of the body, of matter, this creativity transforms. And it’s a path that many women take, revealing themselves in, for example, writing, painting, manual or artistic activities. And I think that this opening that menopause provides should be much more highlighted on social networks and not simply related to hot flashes or problems that not all women have. Besides, the better you are with your body, the better you prepare for your menopause. And I had prepared for it a lot because I had interviewed a quantity of doctors through my profession and my studies—doctors around that age who had told me that it’s prepared for starting at 40. But it can even be prepared for a few years before in terms of routine and hygiene. But that doesn’t preclude plenty of pleasures. Once again…

A: What you’re saying is beautiful. Is there a mantra, or perhaps several?

P: The body is sacred. So, even if it is difficult to live with for some, or for us. Because there was a period in my life where I was twenty kilos heavier, so I can speak about that too, and I can testify to how my body transformed. So, the body is sacred, and being as connected to it as possible, listening to it, and respecting it, but above all, accepting it. I would say the mantra is to accept yourself in the present. Every day is different. One might be annoyed at one moment or feel sad, but by the evening it will have changed, and the next day, one will be completely different, feeling hyper-joyful and ready for sharing. So there you go. Nothing is linear, just like life, like the ebb and flow, like the moon and the sun. And there you go. The more we accept ourselves, the more we are in tune with ourselves, and the more fabulous life becomes because we are going to give back who we are to others. We are going to bear witness, we are going to pass things on to others.

A : Thank you, Pascale.

P: Thank you for this wonderful exchange, and thank you to everyone listening to us. See you soon for other discussions.