“CÉLINE, A NATUROPATH SPECIALIZING IN WOMEN’S HEALTH AND PROBLEMS RELATED TO HORMONAL IMBALANCES, TALKS TO US ABOUT NATURAL SOLUTIONS TO BETTER UNDERSTAND YOUR CYCLE, AND THE IMPORTANCE OF TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF. AN ENRICHING AND MOTIVATING EXCHANGE!”

Caroline : Hello, thank you very much for agreeing to participate in our Women Body Ecology podcast. I thank you because you are really right at the heart of our subject, namely support for managing women's cycles through your experience as a naturopathic practitioner. You create many programs adapted for women, particularly during menopause. As you are truly an expert in this, it will be very interesting for us to discuss with you how women can learn to regain control of their cycle. So, ultimately, from puberty to menopause; and for you to tell us a little more about your experience and your profile.

Céline : With great pleasure, thank you for this invitation.

Caroline : I'll let you quickly introduce yourself: what you do, what you're preparing, and your experience. And then we'll get to the heart of the matter.

Céline : So, my name is Céline Hovette, I am a naturopathic practitioner, nutrition consultant and aromatherapy advisor and I specialize in women's health and more specifically in women's well-being and hormonal issues. I support women who have issues related to, for example, the menstrual cycle, endometriosis, PCOS or even, indeed, premenopause and menopause. In a way, I help these women regain their balance through natural means. To do this, I will use different techniques including diet, nutrition. Of course, this is one of the first pillars and we will undoubtedly have the opportunity to talk about it again; but also phyto aromatherapy, stress management techniques. I will support these people, either through individual consultations, but also and especially now, through programs since I am increasingly in demand and above all, I have realized that online programs, and in particular the fact of creating a community around a subject, is very powerful for obtaining results. And so, these programs combine educational content, personalized advice, live sessions during which I answer questions and once again, this whole community allows for exchanges and is very powerful around all these subjects.

Caroline : Absolutely. And I agree with you on that. It's true that communities, we have the impression that there's a buzz around female well-being because it seems to me that it's an issue that has really been left aside, too taboo in many aspects. There's a sort of awakening, an awareness of all this that is quite recent. So I had a question about that. Precisely, we see different underlying movements when we look at the statistics. There is one statistic in particular that really made me realize the scale of the phenomenon. Today, there are fewer than 35% of women of childbearing age who take, for example, a contraceptive pill. We know that since 2012, the use of hormone replacement therapy has collapsed. Do you have a lot of women who come to see you and who want to take control of their cycle with more natural means?

Céline : So, it's indeed a real "underlying" trend that began to emerge about 5 or 6 years ago in France and which continues. We also see it in hormone replacement therapy for menopause. And indeed, women are taking a wellness approach, a return to nature. And above all, there has been a lot of information given on the side effects of these treatments which, while certainly effective for certain very specific objectives, in the long term and for some women who cannot tolerate these treatments, can really lead to major problems with the pill. I'm thinking in particular of problems with depression and decreased libido. We really have women who lose "years of life" because of the pill. And it's true that when you've tried everything and you realize that it's by stopping the contraceptive pill that all these problems disappear and you feel better, it really makes you think. I'm not saying that we should stop taking the contraceptive pill, but what's important is that there are some women who can't tolerate it or who, at some point in their lives, will no longer tolerate it. So, we need to be aware of that. Especially since the contraceptive pill, for example, can actually cause deficiencies, particularly in vitamin B6 or magnesium. These are nutrients that are essential for hormonal balance. These deficiencies will create, for example, problems with the thyroid or insulin metabolism. It's true that we often don't necessarily think about the side effects that can be caused by this type of treatment.

Caroline : Absolutely, I agree with you that the goal is not at all to stigmatize everything that is synthetic hormones or even bio-identical hormones, because in addition, treatments are improving and are more and more natural. But I think that there is a fundamental movement that is more about wanting to at least understand how it happens, that means a real cycle, with real ovulation, to understand what is happening in our body at a given moment and to understand to what extent, as you said very well, the psyche and the quality of life are interdependent on our hormonal balance. And indeed, there are statistics that are chilling. I even saw that we are 20 times more likely to be diagnosed with depression during the premenopause period than at any other time in our lives. And so, if we can't take a step back from these metabolic changes and better understand how we function: the solutions will be a little "bad" since we won't have tried to take our body back in hand a little. This is where support makes perfect sense. Because, I think, in interviewing many women and through our experience, we have tended to delegate a lot of our hormonal functioning to the pill or other things. In any case, to be a little disconnected from our cycles. And so, I have the impression that naturopathy helps women a lot to better understand their bodies to begin with.

Céline : Absolutely, and it's true that the endocrine system has been scary for a long time for women and even for other wellness practitioners. And now, we feel that there is indeed an awareness. And I think that the first key to taking back control of our well-being and our health is also knowing how our body works, especially as women: understanding our cyclical nature and also how it works according to the different stages of a woman's life: if we go through pregnancy, postpartum, pre-menopause, menopause... We must become aware of our own rhythms, our own needs, our energy level too, which will vary both according to the cycle and "according to the stages of a woman's life." And that is very, very important because we must know that women have never been as stressed as in the time we are living in. We can't be at our best all the time, and we have to recognize that at certain times in our cycle, we have a drop in energy. We want to refocus on ourselves, to take time for ourselves. And that's totally normal! And society can make us believe that it's not: we have to be at our best all the time, we have to be invested in our relationship, our children, our work. Also, the real problem for women, if I may say so here, is that we are rarely as kind to ourselves as we are to others.

Caroline : Absolutely. This decentering of women is very well known!

Céline : That's it. It's quite incredible because we put others before ourselves. So, children, husband, work, friends, we only keep for ourselves what I call "the crumbs of our time." Yet, the most important person in our life, once again, is us. And all of these people need us at the top of our game, at our potential. And it's true that if we give all our energy and attention to others, there will be nothing left for us. However, it's very important to, if we want to take care of our family, to be happy, to have a fulfilling career, take care of ourselves so that we can give to others. So we must actually learn to know ourselves better: how our cycles work, how our energy rhythm works... to be able to adapt a lifestyle that effectively supports our health, our long-term well-being. And not just do "anti-symptomatic" as we often tend to do.

Caroline : Yes, that's it, resisting simple things.

Céline : Absolutely!

Caroline : There's something very interesting in what you're saying. We also need to take a step back. So, indeed, on the one hand, on its cyclical functioning, which is physiological anyway, and on the other hand, also on a cultural bias that encourages women to be very hyperactive, to manage everything. Whereas, ultimately, at each phase of these cycles, whether menstrual cycles or post-menopause or menopause, there are always negative as well as positive aspects. These phases where we can also be a little more tired, a little more irritable, are also phases that are valued (which I find very amusing) in certain tribes as being phases of much greater receptivity and empathy towards others. So, there are really some mixes. We tend to always see the negative side because we see it from a hyperactive perspective. You have to know that at each phase, there are also positive aspects and that indeed, you have to be aware of them to be able to use them well too. And what do you think, you who are led to meet a lot of people in these cases? What are your first pieces of advice? Your plants? Your dietary or physical advice that comes up most often and which have the most effects for these different phases? Do you have some general advice that suits most women?

Céline : It's true that I often individualize my "protocols" each time, if I can use that term. But there are still some broad guidelines that are very important to follow. First of all, the first pillar is diet. I believe that we should never underestimate the power of diet. I repeat it constantly: "we are what we eat," but above all, we are what we digest. So there is both the content of the plate, but also the optimization of the digestive system, which are two essential components in diet. You should know that diet plays a role in reducing menstrual pain, it plays a role in mood, in energy, so it's really important to have a good plate. And then, even when it's well-balanced, it's always good to adapt it even more depending on, for example, the phases of the cycle. It's really important and valid for everyone. Then, there is also a subject that is close to my heart and you have already spoken about it on this podcast channel, it is this “epidemic of endocrine disruptors” in which we are immersed which causes in particular early puberty in young girls, accentuated premenstrual symptoms, sometimes very, very complicated pictures to take care of or even menopause difficult to manage. It is this dominance in estrogens which is put in place with these endocrine disruptors which will mimic the action of estrogens and which will therefore increase these levels circulating in our body. And so, it is important to limit this exposure by trying to have an organic diet, by trying to have care routines free of all these harmful products. This is also valid for household products, furniture. And there's also stress, which is going to be a major disruptor since cortisol, which is one of the stress hormones, is going to interfere with the production of progesterone and therefore will also contribute to a climate of estrogen dominance. So, these are really the three pillars.

Caroline : It's a phenomenon that is too little known. Can you tell us the main symptoms? Because it's true that people often don't know about estrogen dominance, even though it's estimated that almost 50% of women suffer from estrogen dominance. There are women of childbearing age, but it can even happen in premenopause or after. What are the main symptoms, in your opinion, that allow us to identify this phenomenon?

Céline : So, there are a lot of them. We're going to have everything that's "proliferative," that is, breast pain, swollen breasts , or even mastosis. We're also going to have very heavy periods or even fibroids. So those are "the first signs." Then, we're going to have everything that's headaches, symptoms of fatigue, depression, anxiety, mood swings, everything that's going to be sleep disorders. So, there are about fifty signs, but we'll say that we've listed the main ones. It's important to realize that estrogen and progesterone have antagonistic effects and normally, the effects of one are counteracted by the effects of the other. And when, indeed, for the reasons I just mentioned, there is too much estrogen in circulation, it means that there is not enough progesterone to counterbalance the effects of estrogen. Since estrogens are proliferative hormones, this will give rise to everything I described before. So that is also why, thanks to certain measures that we can put in place, we can try to lower “this estrogenic climate” and boost the progesterone climate a little to rebalance things. But it is true that all of this: these early puberties, these symptoms of PMS and menopause, we realize that there is an evolution in relation to our degree of industrialization since these are things that we do not observe in societies that are less industrialized than us, for example.

Caroline : Absolutely. It's precisely in the most mature countries, and often in the most privileged populations, that precocious puberty is particularly observed. You're completely right, and it's truly a sign of exposure. Just a quick aside, because it really gets to the point: it's estimated that, particularly in plastics, 80% of endocrine disruptors are xenoestrogens, specifically molecules that mimic estrogen. Then, you were talking about breast pain, and I know that one of the main treatments for the very typical symptoms of estrogen dominance is creams based on progesterone or progesterone precursors. And stress, as you say, is the number one enemy of estrogen dominance since it itself reinforces this dominance. So, do you also have any dietary advice, particularly to reduce this estrogen dominance?

Céline : It's going to be about consuming as many organic products as possible. Okay, it's going to be a bit complicated to find good organic meat, but it's true that where there are antibiotics and growth factors, it's going to help build and strengthen this phenomenon. So, try to eat as many organic fruits and vegetables as possible, replace anything "white" in terms of carbohydrates with whole or semi-whole grains. Obviously, avoid anything industrialized or processed, since there are food additives and flavor enhancers... These molecules are tested independently of each other, but in fact, as a cocktail in the long lists, it's much more complicated. And regarding skincare, the list is even longer, and a woman uses an average of 15 products per day in her beauty routine, so when you add up the ingredients, it's really, really complicated to know what the long-term effect of all that will be. Afterwards, in terms of diet, it is really important to have a Mediterranean-style diet, as natural as possible, as raw and as unprocessed as possible.

Caroline : Absolutely. Avoid dairy products, which are often high in hormones, even organic products. And physical exercise helps you regain a good hormonal balance more quickly. Do you often seek advice on this type of subject? What do you usually start with when you see your clients?

Céline : So when I see a woman in consultation, I will first of all welcome her request, find out why she is coming to consult me? What are her objectives because it is very important to formulate objectives that are clear both for her and for me, to properly respond to her request. Then, we will go through a lifestyle survey including a dietary survey to see a little bit where it may be lacking and where we can rebalance. We review the entire lifestyle, the entire diet and indeed, physical activity, it is a pillar that is very important, which I also systematically talk about while trying to encourage this practice. So, I encourage it, for several reasons since it is beneficial because it will create endorphins, so it is good for morale and for mood. In some people, it will help improve the sensitivity of cells to the action of insulin so when we have problems, either with weight or improving our physical condition, it is not negligible. But also, during premenopause and menopause, since at this time of life, we can say that physical activity must be part of a healthy lifestyle. But also to avoid, for example, osteoporosis, this kind of discomfort that we can also have during premenopause or menopause, so physical activity is an important pillar. Especially since we are increasingly sedentary. And so, it's important to put that back in the middle of a healthy lifestyle.

Caroline : That's true, and for years we've tended to say, precisely, when there was osteoporosis, or even back pain, not to move, for example. And now, we've just realized how much we must always remain active, even for back pain and osteoporosis. Micro-shocks to the bones, that's what will really strengthen the bones. So, to maintain your body, you have to move, you have to have micro-shocks, you have to get it moving. And precisely, even when there is pain and things like that, when it's not in the joint, we realize that it's better to move sometimes. Afterwards, it's always your doctor who will tell you to stay still if necessary, while waiting for the pain to pass, for example.

Céline : That's totally true because the body is made to move. You have to realize that in prehistoric times, we had to travel miles to hunt for our food by moving. And it's true that today, we suffer not only from eating badly, from eating too much, but also from not moving enough. And when the body doesn't work and doesn't move, well, it rusts! That's also why, in a way, I like to use this image: we have a beautiful machine, but if it doesn't run regularly, it rusts. It's exactly the same with this "epidemic" of pain, back pain; it's because we don't move enough and you're absolutely right to say that, indeed, the best remedy for all of that is definitely not to stay still because that will only make things worse! But it's precisely about getting loose and walking: even walking is a very good exercise that is accessible to almost everyone. Afterwards, you have to find your rhythm, your distance, but the benefits are incredible!

Caroline : That's why there's very little risk in getting started, walking, brisk walking, getting some fresh air, since it's a sport that's very invigorating. It's highly recommended even for memory; there are many links between movement and psychological and neurological memorization phenomena. And finally, as you say, walking is the first thing to start with. So, we can hurt ourselves and start with an activity that's a little more traumatic for the body, like jogging, but we really need to reintegrate walking into our daily routine to get started. So, what are your favorite plants, if you have any? If you have any things you tend to recommend? If, for this kind of case of estrogen dominance, do you have any things to recommend?

Céline : So, it all always depends on the patient's background because there are certain backgrounds that need to be taken into account. The idea is to use plants that will lower the "estrogenic climate" by strengthening the progesterone climate. This will be the case, for example, with yarrow or lady's mantle. For women at the time of menopause, I really like black cohosh, which works very well, but once again, I really like to individualize based on the symptoms, the problems, and the person's background. That's really what's interesting, is that ultimately, each person is different and won't necessarily react the same way to certain plants. On the other hand, there is one plant that I use with a lot of caution, and I know that sometimes I feel a little alone on this subject; it's chasteberry. I see it in a lot of food supplements. Now, chasteberry, from what we know today, is still a plant that acts on the pituitary gland and therefore it is not neutral. In fact, it is exactly the same means of action as the contraceptive pill and I see a lot of women who take it as a first line of treatment, whereas for me, it should be taken rather as a last line of treatment.

Caroline : And under supervision! In free plant form without contraindication, we find it dangerous. In any case, avoid it as a first option.

Céline : Absolutely. Or take it with a check-up that gives us an LH FSH ratio to see a bit what it's like. But I'm always quite dismayed to see this plant always cited as a first-line treatment or used in a lot of food supplements, when for me, it's far from neutral, in any case harmless. While we already have other plants like yarrow and lady's mantle that can already be very interesting. After all, I also like to use plant buds, what we call gemmotherapy. For me, it's a form that is also very effective with herbal teas that demonstrate their effectiveness as long as we infuse the right amount of plants, and drink three to four cups a day. But there you go, in any case, what is certain is that there are a lot of natural solutions before arriving, indeed, perhaps at a medicinal solution. Again, I'm not saying that you should stop everything and that you should definitely not take medication. What I mean is that when you have a hormonal problem or a chronic problem, there are a certain number of pillars to implement in a certain order. The problem is that we always look at diet last, when we've tried everything, when it should be the first pillar.

Caroline : What you're saying makes perfect sense: even the best dietary supplement, if you don't change your diet, or at least if you do anything from a dietary point of view, will never work. And you're right to point out that we're all biochemically different, so just because a dietary supplement or plant works very well on someone else doesn't mean it will work on you. It's therefore very important to take them one at a time and not to combine them, except when accompanied by a naturopath or a doctor. You need to get advice when you end up combining several things; you can't cook your own meals, otherwise you won't even know what's right for you or not. That's important to say.

Céline : That's true! I also see women who switch from one dietary supplement to another, or they come to me and say, "I saw so-and-so who took this and it didn't work for me." Yes, but did you give yourself time? Because that's actually it, natural solutions work, but you also have to give yourself time! It's not like allopathy where you take a medication and it immediately acts on the symptom. When you look for the root cause of these problems, it means questioning your lifestyle. First of all, it's far from comfortable and it still requires a lot of commitment and motivation. And then, you have to give yourself at least three or four months because, in terms of the cycle, we know that this is roughly the duration of follicle maturation, so for there to really be an impact, you have to give yourself at least three months to see the first results. It's also a whole time scale to review in this society where we have short-term goals, we want everything instantly. Naturopathy also relearns patience and how to get back into a more relaxed rhythm.

Caroline : Yes, I completely agree with you and indeed, in terms of nutrition, we can change things depending on our cycle. But, the real fundamental changes for the plants to take effect, for us to see something, and even, from a physical exercise point of view, as you say, it takes at least three months. To see fundamental changes, it's important to take the time because ultimately, from a physiological point of view, that's how it happens. Cycles are long! You have to reconnect with your long cycles. Thank you very much for all this great advice, I think there are a lot of things to learn and surely a lot of things that women will learn. Do you have a little mantra that you say to your clients to help them in this process, as you said, which is ultimately longer than traditional medicine, but at the same time so much healthier? And I think that once you've acquired it, it's for life and it allows you to really know your body better and better control your quality of life. What can you say to these women to encourage them to take charge of their health? Do you have a little mantra or a little final word about that?

Céline : So I would say that when you do what you need to do, you no longer have to monitor everything because that's often what comes back, is to say to yourself "I'm going to have to be careful." Yes, for a while, but the idea is that when you develop a good habit in the end, it will simplify your life in the sense that you will choose a habit to achieve a goal. And if you discipline yourself a little at the start to acquire these good habits, later on, it will be integrated into your lifestyle and so, obviously, you will do what you need to do and therefore you will no longer need to monitor yourself or in any case, to always be in resistance. And that's really important to understand. It's not like a diet. When Véronique Pires says that diets don't work, she's absolutely right! In the sense that, already the word diet has a negative connotation, a connotation of deprivation. What you need to work on is a healthy lifestyle and new eating habits because once it becomes a habit, it will be so integrated and so natural that there will be no more “slip-ups”. And so, you have to say to yourself: there is a problem, you want to act with natural means. OK, now, what is your objective? Where do you want to be in three months? Where do you want to be with all these problems that are ruining your life today? And say to yourself, here I am going to do what is necessary. And then I am going to maintain this in the long term so that this problem does not actually come back. And it works! The thing is, if you give yourself time, you get support and you are kind to yourself: it will go well and in general, we still have results that are quite surprising. I admit that sometimes, I have quite crazy results, just how effective it is.

Caroline : We've seen women postpone fibroid operations. I have tons of examples from talking to experts who are truly mind-blowing! Even premature ovarian failure is delayed. In fact, that's what's crazy! We realize how much the body is absolutely full of resources and that we have to learn how to use them. And ultimately, there are lots of things we think we allow ourselves as simple and quick pleasures, like a sweet treat at the wrong time. When in fact, by changing our habits and adopting healthier ones, just as delicious, like modifying a few ingredients in a cake recipe: replacing butter with whole almond puree, replacing milk and sugar with beetroot juice, we can maintain it for the very long term. Finally, there are lots of tips today, there are lots of accounts and blogs teeming with good ideas and in fact, we realize that it's really simple. It's a habit to take as you say. A habit to take, it's two weeks, it's not necessarily more complicated, it's not necessarily less tasty: it's just a new habit. I think it's really important to say it: we don't live in a parallel world, it's just that we take on new healthier habits and we listen more to our bodies. And ultimately, it goes quickly.

Well listen, thank you very much. I hope that you will motivate many women who may be having problems at that time to better understand what is happening in their bodies and in particular to learn a little more about their bodies and be aware of their cycle. Thank you very much for this exchange. And then, see you very soon, I hope.

Céline : Thank you, Caroline. See you soon!

Caroline : Goodbye Celine!